Deputies shoot, kill man after knocking on wrong door

**PIKE** · 07-17-2012, 10:37 AM

I would not answer my door at that hour without a call from someone I know saying they are coming over, even than I will ask who is there. I'm not sure how it went down but they should verify addresses better before knocking on/down the door.

**IEDmagnet** · 07-17-2012, 10:49 AM

I'm not even saying that, I prefer people be willing to defend themselves, as we can't be every where at once. But...it has to be done responsibly. If, under this set of circumstances where the officers were knocking and not entering, the "victim" would have taken a few seconds to look out a window or ask who is there...we would have had a different outcome. Or even further, if while he was safely secure inside his residence with any potential threat outside and unable (at that point) to get to him, wouldn't it have been more responsible to maintain an armed posture inside and call the police? Again we would have a different outcome.

On the opposite note, the Police had a K9 on scene. Why not run a track? It was an apartment complex...why not set up a perimeter and call the management/power company/water department for a better address? There would be a different outcome.

We can Monday morning quarterback all kinds of things. This is a tragic and needless situation and my prayers go out to both the victims family and the officer who shot him.

I also want to point out the fact that I'd have had less to say if this was a warrant less entry resulting in death. I'd have called for the heads of those involved, but my opinions are based on the facts we have. "What if grasshoppers had machine guns? Spiders wouldn't fuck with 'em."

I see blame on both sides, but nothing criminal.

**LOOON** · 07-17-2012, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by IEDmagnet

I also don't see how you can say someone knocking on your door at night justifies being shot in the face.

That is not what I am trying to say. My point being, this guy answering the door (his own private property) has every right to answer the door with a gun. And that by itself is not grounds to take two in the face either. And that is the exact justification the LT on the scene used to justify the shooting. What that tells me, is that anyone will be shot regardless of who might be in the wrong, and it don't really matter if we screwed up. You will be dead.

I here noise or anyone comes to my door late at night, I am armed and ready to shoot if needed. That's the beautiful thing about where I live. EVERYONE has guns and our local law enforcement uses due dilligence to make sure they get shit right the first time, because if this same scenario happened in my little community, everyone involved in that fucked up tradgedy would be strung the fuck up (legally speaking of course). There is no excuse for shit like that happening.

And NO, I don't approve of anyone taking two in the face, citizen or cop.

**IEDmagnet** · 07-17-2012, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by LOOON

That is not what I am trying to say. My point being, this guy answering the door (his own private property) has every right to answer the door with a gun. And that by itself is not grounds to take two in the face either. And that is the exact justification the LT on the scene used to justify the shooting. What that tells me, is that anyone will be shot regardless of who might be in the wrong, and it don't really matter if we screwed up. You will be dead.

I here noise or anyone comes to my door late at night, I am armed and ready to shoot if needed. That's the beautiful thing about where I live. EVERYONE has guns and our local law enforcement uses due dilligence to make sure they get shit right the first time, because if this same scenario happened in my little community, everyone involved in that fucked up tradgedy would be strung the fuck up (legally speaking of course). There is no excuse for shit like that happening.

And NO, I don't approve of anyone taking two in the face, citizen or cop.

I understand your point, maybe we are reading it differently or maybe my forked up brain is putting it in terms that I can justify, but I gathered that he answered the door pointing...

If he was just holding it, then match the threat and issue commands...if he's pointing it I still don't see a criminal charge.

**CharliePC** · 07-17-2012, 11:09 AM

IIRC, in the vid report the LEOs said the dead guy pointed the gun at them.

Maybe this is a dumb question- when the situation allows, are LEOs taught to park their cars to capture a possible confrontation with the dash-cam?

If so, and if there was enough light, the video could tell the whole story.

**jumpers-hit-it** · 07-17-2012, 11:15 AM

Seems to me that these cops were jittery and trigger happy, and failed to ensure their intelligence was correct. They accidentally killed someone, an innocent man. They should face the same prosecution that I as a citizen would face if I accidentally killed a man. The emails from the Sheriff's office state that it was an accident, if the subject had pointed a gun at them, it wouldn't be an accident, it would be the deliberate act of self defense, so why didn't the cops say so?

Cops have a dangerous duty no doubt and I thank them for it, but just because they have a badge doesn't mean they should be above the law.

**IEDmagnet** · 07-17-2012, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by CharliePC

IIRC, in the vid report the LEOs said the dead guy pointed the gun at them.

Maybe this is a dumb question- when the situation allows, are LEOs taught to park their cars to capture a possible confrontation with the dash-cam?

If so, and if there was enough light, the video could tell the whole story.

It is per department policy, in the case of our policy we are taught that the video must run when on a call for service...but it is primarily for audio.

**IEDmagnet** · 07-17-2012, 12:19 PM

Jumpers, I'm just gonna say I appreciate the thought...but you have a seriously skewed view of law enforcement if you think we'er above the law.

I've always seen and heard we are guilty until proven innocent, unlike everyone else. But I'm done, nothing else productive coming out of this thread.

**airbrnebkr** · 07-17-2012, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by IEDmagnet

I believe this to be a absolutely tragic accident, but before people get too wrapped up in this announcing stuff.... We do not have to announce who we are when we knock unless we are executing a search warrant, especially when an armed (or believed to be armed) attempted murder suspect is on the other side of the door. Even then the announcing can be as we are busting your door down (in select situations mind you, drug warrants etc where safety of officers and evidence are a concern).

I'm not defending these officers actions whole heartedly though, there were certainly other options for ensuring they had the correct apartment, ie the dog on scene, but I do not see them being charged with anything criminal off the facts given.

Civil liability, very good chance the department is going to pay, but outside of that I see nothing. Other factors would be how well lit was the door area of the apartment, could the "victim" have looked outside and identified the officers by sight...etc etc.

I have had someone answer the door with a gun like that...I was just lucky enough to have had a suspect that decided his life was more important than hanging onto that gun. But I DO have a right to defend myself, and I can tell you that sometimes that decision must be made in split seconds....without a chance for reflection until the incident is over. It sucks for the officers too...the majority of us would prefer to never fire at anything other than paper...but those days are long gone and getting further in the rear view.

Very well said IED. I couldn't agree more. None of us were there to know exactly how this went down and to believe that the media is giving a non biased, true account of what happened is ignorant. Cops want to go home to their families at the end of a shift too. It is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

**airbrnebkr** · 07-17-2012, 12:55 PM

After re reading these posts several times. It seems the question is how this individual opened the door. There is a significant difference between answering the door armed and answering the door with a gun up, pointed at who ever is outside. I too would answer the door late at night with my gun, that is common sense but common sense also says that you don't answer the door with the gun up and ready until you have identified your target. How about having the gun behind your back or at the low ready? Now I have no way of knowing how the guy opened the door but I think the difference needs to be pointed out.

I knock on doors in the middle of the night all the time and I have an expectation that the person may be armed when answering but thankfully no one has ever opened the door with the gun pointed at me.

**VoTrooper99** · 07-17-2012, 01:14 PM

Here's a better question. If he's spooked enough to answer the door armed, why did he open the door at all.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

**LOOON** · 07-17-2012, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by airbrnebkr

It seems the question is how this individual opened the door.

No it isn't. They should have NEVER been there, by there own admission. That means, because of their neglegent act, a man is dead. Sure, at this point in time we don't know all the details, but the PD is has the sole blame here.

They trajically killed one of the innocent civilians they were supposed to be protecting from they guy they were actually looking for.

It doesn't matter if he pointed or didn't point. They fucked up by going to the wrong house. That is where this starts and ends.

We don't know if the dispatcher got it wrong, or if the the officers on scene fucked it up. But what is fact, is that they initiated a confrontation with an innocent man that resulted in them killing that innocent guy. And Im pretty sure that this issue will indeed be made out to be that it was solely the dead guy's fault for answering with a gun. (defense lawyers)

Pointing or not pointing, they should have never been there.

**airbrnebkr** · 07-17-2012, 01:16 PM

Lol..come on Vo. You know as well as I do its because he has no common sense...lol

**airbrnebkr** · 07-17-2012, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by jumpers-hit-it

Seems to me that these cops were jittery and trigger happy, and failed to ensure their intelligence was correct. They accidentally killed someone, an innocent man. They should face the same prosecution that I as a citizen would face if I accidentally killed a man. The emails from the Sheriff's office state that it was an accident, if the subject had pointed a gun at them, it wouldn't be an accident, it would be the deliberate act of self defense, so why didn't the cops say so?

Cops have a dangerous duty no doubt and I thank them for it, but just because they have a badge doesn't mean they should be above the law.

Jumpers,

It seems to me that the guy in the house was jittery and failed to make any effort to identify who was outside before opening the door with a gun drawn. Above the law? Police actions are looked at under a microscope and arm chair quarterbacked for years. They are also held to a standard of scrutiny that most civilians could never live up to, at least in my part of the world.

**LOOON** · 07-17-2012, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by airbrnebkr

It seems to me that the guy in the house was jittery and failed to make any effort to identify who was outside before opening the door with a gun drawn.

The guy is dead for having a gun, in his own home, which is not against the law. So are you saying he is to blame for not making an effort to identify who is illegally outside his house? And the PD holds no responsiblity for failing to properly identify themselves? They admitted that by the way.