Shot placement discussion coronor's graphic photos linked

[Garda11B1P]

Regarding this PDF, the following are quotes from Dr. Gary Roberts, a noted ballistics expert, talking on lightfighter.net. He sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I'm interested in everyone's opinion of these comments though.

Thanks for the input and the link. I knew from reading the original PPT that there was a lot left out and did question the autopsy pics.

[smokn38]

It's all about shot placement. However qualifying twice a year isn't going to improve their shooting. Most depts lack a realistic shooting program to include my dept.

I run my departments firearms program, and we are in the process of switching over to Scenario and Reality based trainng. The fact of the matter going to the range is great, but definately not an accurate reflection of the way a gun fight will unfold (google NYPD SOP 9). I attended Ken Murray's SBT Instructor school a few months back, and I am sold. Shot placement is important, but practicing it in a firing range static will not improve overcoming the dynamics of an officer involved shooting. Setting up realistic scenario's, and I'm not talking non winnable BS, provides building blocks to survive similar encounters down the road. As a firearms instructor I understand the range has a purpose. I can prove much more outside of that static environment doing force on force scenario training on a regular basis.

[18C4V]

I run my departments firearms program, and we are in the process of switching over to Scenario and Reality based trainng. The fact of the matter going to the range is great, but definately not an accurate reflection of the way a gun fight will unfold (google NYPD SOP 9). I attended Ken Murray's SBT Instructor school a few months back, and I am sold. Shot placement is important, but practicing it in a firing range static will not improve overcoming the dynamics of an officer involved shooting. Setting up realistic scenario's, and I'm not talking non winnable BS, provides building blocks to survive similar encounters down the road. As a firearms instructor I understand the range has a purpose. I can prove much more outside of that static environment doing force on force scenario training on a regular basis.

Try a shoot house for realistic training. Most cops unless they are on a part/full time SWAT team never go to a shoot house for live fire or do low light fire.

[Mortarman11c]

Don't agree with just pass/fail system. But that is California protecting their asses from litigation. I seem to recall LAPD guys wearing marksmenship badges.

Protecting your agency from litigation by having pass/fail is a joke. Your failing your weak shooters who consistinaly pass on the low end, and fail to recognize your good shooters on the high end. No one says you need to wear a marksmenship badge on the street.

In court my response to the question of "Mr. MM11C you qualified as a "High Expert" with your agency is that correct?"

"Yes."

"Then Mr. MM11c tell the court why you didn't simply shoot to wound the deceased?"

"I am trained by my agency to use my weapon in a life threating situation. And I am trained to engage to stop the threat. The threat against my life was stopped in accordance to my training. I am not a doctor, I do not know where to shoot to wound."

"But Mr. MM11C, why didn't you shoot him in the arm or the leg, that would only wound him not kill him."

"Really?? Are you a doctor too?"

crickets.................

You train to stop the threat always. That training includes center mass shots to the chest. Any good agency will follow up on that training by teaching failure drills.

So in California what are the pass/fail standards??

[VoTrooper99]

We do a day shoot and night shoot twice a year each. Standard is always 16 for 20 from 3 to 21 yds. Standing and kneeling, off hand and gun hand.

It's pretty weak, but it meets the state standard. The night shoot is a true night shoot. All you have is a nightlight near the targets (literally) and moonlight on a covered outdoor range.

It is pass/fail with no elevated shooting levels, but they do record your score.

[18C4V]

How big is your agency? My dept is the 4th largest in Ca with over 2,400 sworn cops and over 1000 deputies. Having said that, with the amount of OIS shootings our city has. Our policy has been tested in court so for us our pass/fail system works. It's a standard, you don't reward people for passing or exceeding the standard. Their reward is surviving a gun fight.

Our part and full time SWAT Team has higher standards than regular patrol. When I was a FA instructor and then the Sgt in charge of training for the part time team, I trained my guys to win and there are part time SWAT cops who are alive based upon the training they received from me and my staff.

What I noticed from attending various LE schools, that smaller depts can invest more time for tactics, shootings, then larger depts due to not being so busy as larger depts are.

I'll ask my team sgt whose on LAPD SWAT about their marksmanship badges. I have a feeling that it might be part of their militar awards that they are allowed to wear on their pd uniforms.

[smokn38]

Try a shoot house for realistic training. Most cops unless they are on a part/full time SWAT team never go to a shoot house for live fire or do low light fire.

I would love to, that being said there are a number of persons I would not trust in such a situation yet. We are in baby steps. Our department has about 30 sworn so being smaller, we have a little more flexibilty for training. Michigan as a state just switched over firearms Post Service training and qualification standards. They modeled off a number of different programs, and switched it to pass / fail. 100% off the rounds have to be in the scoring ring.

[18C4V]

I would love to, that being said there are a number of persons I would not trust in such a situation yet.

LOL,
That's why I stopped being an FTO!!!

[Mortarman11c]

Does you state offer advanced firearms course at the state level?? Georgia does, and when I worked for the state I attended EVERYONE of them for free. The only one I didn't get to shoot was the sniper course. I couldn't justify why a Parole Officer had to attend.......

Hell I went to the Glock Armorers course on my own dime but on work time just for the experience.

[18C4V]

Our part time and full time guys go to POST Certified schools. Non POST FA schools put on by the NTOA/CTOA are good to go also. Other non certified FA schools are next to impossible to get. Most of the regular patrol goes to the inservice FA training put on by the range staff.