Shot placement discussion coronor's graphic photos linked

[SCAVENGER]

I am a F.A. Inst. for my Dept. and I'm constantly in the shit because of my attitude when it comes to training, the Admins. just want a number score as long as it passes the state minimum of 70%, well 1/2 of 70% ain't shit when it comes to real world situations.
Most shooters will shoot 1/2 of their range score under real world situations.
I'm have tried to get my Dept. for years now to incoorporate more stress on the shooters when they are at the range for qualification to no avail.
I have also utilized the lump that is located 3 feet above my ass in order to make situations on the range as realistic as possible, and in the end get my ass chewed for officers spending too much time on the range Fuck I thought it was my job to train someone to the best of my ability.
I have noticed it all comes back to $$.
I tell the folks, "every day you come to work you are in a lottery, and one day your number will come up and when it does I just hope you have been trained well, and you have the ability to come out on top".
When the shit hits the fan, the admin roaches will be scrambling like the kitchen lights been turned on, I can only hope for the sake of the folks that I train, that they will come out on top, and that the roaches get stomped!!

[VoTrooper99]

SWAT isn't supposed to be the end all to all solutions, just a supplement to patrol. Most times, patrol is the one to resolve the situation before even SWAT gets there.
Each cop in my dept gets 100 rds a month to go to the range and practice, but not too many take advantage of it.

My point though. SWAT does 1% of the work (we have a part time team) and get 99% of the training $$$. Patrol gets next to nothing. Not even a training rounds alotment.

The town council recently wanted to cut our ammo budget even further. Each officer is issued 37 rounds of .40 for their carry weapon. A town councilman ACTUALLY SAID in a meeting that the town would be more than happy to issue 10 rounds to each cop and the rest we could get by soliciting donations door to door.

WHAT?

Not only is that unethical but its stupid. Fortunately he was promptly called an ass and silenced. For all the talk in media of "cops are our heroes" and shit, when it comes budget time, we're the first ones everyone wants to cut. The state just tried to cut the $3000 death benefit to officers KIA from this year's budget. Meanwhile, all the welfares moms are still boozin' it up on the first of the month. It was defeated but WTF? We lost a cop or two in this state a year and that's what they want to cut? A dead cop's measly $3000? What's wrong with that picture? All the real insurance comes from the union (comparable to AD military)

When it comes to shooting and training, it's not the cost of materials they are even worried about. It's the overtime they have to pay to get the officers to the training that's the rub.

If you want to be loved, go be a fireman.

[Garda11B1P]

"If you want to be loved, go be a fireman."

Firemen need heros to thats what were for.

[VoTrooper99]

"If you want to be loved, go be a fireman."

Firemen need heros to thats what were for.

[Feetasshead]

Interesting...good thing I carry a .45

Preach on my brother.
I do not know why they expect a 5.56 to be a massive manstopper when it is not.
You can put a saddle on a pig and wish it to be a horse but in the end it is still a shitty pig.
If they want good ballistics they should step up to 6.8 SPC or 7.62 NATO.

[Feetasshead]

My point though. SWAT does 1% of the work (we have a part time team) and get 99% of the training $$$. Patrol gets next to nothing. Not even a training rounds alotment.

The town council recently wanted to cut our ammo budget even further. Each officer is issued 37 rounds of .40 for their carry weapon. A town councilman ACTUALLY SAID in a meeting that the town would be more than happy to issue 10 rounds to each cop and the rest we could get by soliciting donations door to door.

WHAT?

Not only is that unethical but its stupid. Fortunately he was promptly called an ass and silenced. For all the talk in media of "cops are our heroes" and shit, when it comes budget time, we're the first ones everyone wants to cut. The state just tried to cut the $3000 death benefit to officers KIA from this year's budget. Meanwhile, all the welfares moms are still boozin' it up on the first of the month. It was defeated but WTF? We lost a cop or two in this state a year and that's what they want to cut? A dead cop's measly $3000? What's wrong with that picture? All the real insurance comes from the union (comparable to AD military)

When it comes to shooting and training, it's not the cost of materials they are even worried about. It's the overtime they have to pay to get the officers to the training that's the rub.

If you want to be loved, go be a fireman.

That is because they pay cops in wampum still in RI. I have more in my wallet than that rest stop of a state has in its annual budget.

I think it is a sign that those who wear the badge should go elsewhere where they may be appreciated more. We need some more cops in TX.

[VoTrooper99]

That is because they pay cops in wampum still in RI. I have more in my wallet than that rest stop of a state has in its annual budget.

I think it is a sign that those who wear the badge should go elsewhere where they may be appreciated more. We need some more cops in TX.

I'd love to go to TX. I was watching Inside American Jail and saw a guy get 14 days for public intoxication on a guilty plea. That's not even a fucking charge up here. It gave me a fucking hard-on. Up here you could have a guy on tape assaulting a cop and he MIGHT...MIGHT get 30 days. He's more likely to get a year probation. It sucks.

Three problems...

1.) Convince my wife, as all of our family is up here.

2.) When I lived in TX as a little kid (DFW area) I was basically allergic to the grass down there. Shitty to buy a house and all then be sick all the time.

3.) Probably going to take a loss on this house.

[RockOut]

"Why do you carry a 45?"
Because they don't make a 46.

[Mortarman11c]

In my job we qualifed 4 times a year. Shot every month. Usually two to three times a month. Shot 8 inch and 6 inch steel targets. Weak hand shooting, one handed reloads, moving targets, moving forwards, backwards, sideways, Groucho walk. Officer down scenarios, Seated, prone, etc. Ranges from contact distance all the way out to 50 yards. All with a handgun.

We trained to never miss. A missed bullet could kill or maim an innocent. If you don't think you can make the shot. Close until you could. Center mass, center mass, center mass. And if that didn't stop the perp, failure drill.

We practiced against the FBI Q targets but shot the FLETC blue for record. Never shot below a 285/300 with 100% on target. Thats 95% in the 5 ring.

As a LEO your main goal is to go home everyday with the exact same number of holes in your body that you came to work with.

Your firearm is your life. Train with it, clean it, shoot it. If you can't shoot expert EVERYTIME you qualify, then shoot some more.

I wouldn't except a 70% shooter as a partner. That fucker may miss when I need him to put lead on target the most.

Better to let him go down then use his body as a sandbag rest.

[VoTrooper99]

I shoot on my own. On the move, various ranges, off hand, all that shit.

But the PD doesn't provide me the bullets or the range time. That's on me. I do take the tax deduction though.

[18C4V]

In my job we qualifed 4 times a year. Shot every month. Usually two to three times a month. Shot 8 inch and 6 inch steel targets. Weak hand shooting, one handed reloads, moving targets, moving forwards, backwards, sideways, Groucho walk. Officer down scenarios, Seated, prone, etc. Ranges from contact distance all the way out to 50 yards. All with a handgun.

We trained to never miss. A missed bullet could kill or maim an innocent. If you don't think you can make the shot. Close until you could. Center mass, center mass, center mass. And if that didn't stop the perp, failure drill.

We practiced against the FBI Q targets but shot the FLETC blue for record. Never shot below a 285/300 with 100% on target. Thats 95% in the 5 ring.

As a LEO your main goal is to go home everyday with the exact same number of holes in your body that you came to work with.

Your firearm is your life. Train with it, clean it, shoot it. If you can't shoot expert EVERYTIME you qualify, then shoot some more.

I wouldn't except a 70% shooter as a partner. That fucker may miss when I need him to put lead on target the most.

Better to let him go down then use his body as a sandbag rest.

That's interesting in hearing about a percentage scoring. I'm a POST Certifed FA instructor and we don't use a percentage scoring system for our dept to include the part and full time SWAT team. We use a pass/fail system. In fact, I can't even remember if any dept in CA use the percentage scoring.

[Buddah]

We have used pass/fail for a long time in our dept and I cannot think of any agencies in our area who do not.

When I first got we we used to issue qual badges and we found out it was a bad idea because if one of your bottom feeders gets invovled in a bad shooting, the lawyers can come back and say that you did not train them enough to meet the other officers standards.

Unfortunately, our last Chief missed them and brought them back, along with a percentage to go with them. Myself and the other FAIs are working on getting rid of them again.

[RockOut]

Regarding this PDF, the following are quotes from Dr. Gary Roberts, a noted ballistics expert, talking on lightfighter.net. He sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I'm interested in everyone's opinion of these comments though.

"Not this BS again....The link is to a PARTIAL, bastardized version of a FBI analysis of the PA fight--this document was NOT authorized to be publicly released.

The x-rays depicted clearly show multiple expanded .40 caliber JHP's in the assailant's body--all which appear to have penetrated substantially deeper than the 1" number being erroneously claimed by some ignorant internet posters. The FBI document unequivocally states that the Gold Dots satisfied FBI terminal performance requirements (ie. 12-18" penetration with acceptable expansion) and that it is IMPOSSIBLE for .40 S&W JHP 180 gr ammunition to expand with 1" or less penetration in the human body. It also states that 5 of the 6 .40 JHP's recovered on autopsy were expanded (83% expansion rate). It concludes that: "The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident."

As the FBI document states:

quote:
"There is plenty of inaccurate information regarding ballistics/terminal performance disseminated on web forums, even those which are dedicated as LE only.

Also from Dr. Roberts on lightfighter.net -

"the .223/5.56 mm Hornady TAP polymer tip and OTM rounds generally have poor performance against intermediate barriers like vehicles and glass. The FBI test protocols emphasize barrier blind projectiles with no performance degradation from intermediate barriers. This is why we do NOT recommend loads like the 75/77 gr OTM's for use in environments were shots may potentially be made around vehicles or other intermediate barriers. If your potential engagements are likely to involve such situations, then you need to go to a barrier blind load like the superb 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (LE223T1). The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT and 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullets are also good choices. The all copper Barnes TSX bullets can work reasonably well, although the expanded "petals" often shear off when penetrating glass intermediate barriers. FWIW, contrary to what many believe, 62 gr M855 FMJ is not very go od against glass. For military use, the M995 AP is the best choice for vehicles and glass. Again, none of the OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads like Mk262, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. Take a look at my NDIA briefing for more info on barrier blind projectiles: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf "

[18C4V]

I've used 62 and 77 gr in combat and I never had a problem with those rounds.

As a LEO, I responded to enough gang shootings to see the effects of 9mm, 40 cal, 45, cal, 5.56 and 7.62. I personally know of cops in my dept who used their dept issued 40 and saved the tax payers countless dollars and the waste of lengthly criminal trials.

[ke4gde]

Good stuff all around. I wish we would train more bur budget cuts really hamper that ability. For some of us guys on nights it would be nice to get some scenario shooting in the dark. Most of our probable scenarios are gonna be in low light situations.

Though I was impressed with our patrol rifle program. Obviously not enough training but more than I thought they would give. The transition classes should be at least a week long to help improve muscle memory.

Want in one hand and crap in the other right? LOL